A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
The New York Times reports this morning that President Trump authorized a top-secret military mission into North Korea in 2019 during his first term. Seal Team 6 was tasked with planting a device to monitor Kim Jong Un's communications. But the mission ended in failure as the Seals killed several North Koreans. And the administration did not inform Congress about the mission, according to the Times reporting, which NPR has not confirmed.
Joining us is New York Times national correspondent David Philipps, who co-wrote the piece with freelance journalist Matthew Cole. So, David, how was this mission supposed to play out?
DAVID PHILIPPS: Basically, a U.S. Navy nuclear-powered sub was going to pull in close to the North Korean coast and release two minisubs that are about the size of, like, a killer whale. And those subs were packed with a small team of Navy SEALs. Once they reached the shore, the SEALs were supposed to swim the last couple hundred yards in, sneak to a specific location and plant a electronic device that had been developed by U.S. intelligence agencies.
But that's not what happened. They were expecting the shore to be empty when they reached this area. Instead, they encountered a boat that started flashing lights down at the submarines. And the SEALs, who are on the shore watching this, didn't know what to do. And so they opened fire and killed everybody on the boat.
MARTÍNEZ: Wow. Now, this is a SEAL Team 6 Red Squadron. That's the team that killed Osama Bin Laden.
PHILIPPS: That's right.
MARTÍNEZ: With this mission, it sounds like it's a very risky one, a very dangerous one. What kind of approval would it need?
PHILIPPS: Well, risky kind of understates it. So it's extremely difficult. A lot could go wrong. It's complex. And if anything goes wrong when you're putting troops on the ground in North Korea, you could have a hostage crisis or possibly, you know, elevating hostilities that lead to nuclear war. So because of that, President Trump had to approve it personally.
MARTÍNEZ: OK. And all this was happening right in the run-up to President Trump's meeting, in-person meeting, with Kim Jong Un in February of 2019. So, I mean, why risk a diplomatic nightmare this close to a meeting like that?
PHILIPPS: That's right. Listeners will probably remember that all through 2018 and '19, Trump was really making a personal effort to break through with North Korea, to meet with Kim Jong Un and try and denuclearize the country. So at the same time, he has this high-risk mission that, you know, if it's discovered, may undo everything. You know, why did he do it? I don't know. But it's an extraordinary risk. Maybe he and the intelligence agencies decided that having this insight, this secret device to listen in on his communications, could give them an edge in that effort.
MARTÍNEZ: Is there any evidence, David, that the North Koreans killed on the boat were in the military?
PHILIPPS: Here's what we know. This was a small boat, maybe about 14 feet, out in the middle of a bay at night. The SEALs firing on it likely did not know who was in it. But after they fired, they swam over to the boat to make sure that everyone was dead. And what they found was people with no uniforms and no weapons. And all the evidence on the boat suggested that this was a small group of locals who was, you know, probably diving for shellfish.
MARTÍNEZ: Any number of people killed in this mission?
PHILIPPS: The estimates we have is between two and three.
MARTÍNEZ: Two and three. OK. Has North Korea ever talked about this, either in public or maybe through private back channels diplomatically, in any way like that?
PHILIPPS: Well, the challenge for the United States is, when trying to figure out what North Korea knows, is they don't really have any great intelligence sources in North Korea. That was one of the reasons for this mission. So North Korea has never said anything publicly about this or even hinted about it. As far as we can tell, there was some elevated military activity in the area right after this happened. But the U.S. government still doesn't know if North Korea has pieced together, you know, who was responsible and what they were up to.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, according to your reporting, the heads of the committees in Congress that oversee the military and intelligence agencies were not told about the mission. Is that allowed?
PHILIPPS: That's right. There are some laws that were put on the books decades ago to make sure that key members of Congress - and we're just talking about a very small handful of people - are informed when these types of high-level intelligence decisions happen. And for good reason, right? We want oversight on what the president is doing.
But in this case, we were able to figure out that it didn't happen. In fact, it did eventually happen under the Biden administration, who came in after President Trump and learned what had happened and said, jeez, we better tell Congress about this.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, you also write about the motivations of some of the people who shared this information anonymously with you, about two dozen people. What were they saying about why they felt it was important to have this information out there for the public?
PHILIPPS: Bottom line, when everything is kept secret, including all of the failures, there's no real accountability. And so you can have the impression that a Navy SEAL group, or any special operations group, is really effective and not know about the different ways in which they failed. And they said that that's a problem, not only for the public, but also for policymakers because you may believe that sending in the Navy SEALs is a easy fix, and you don't realize how mixed the record is.
MARTÍNEZ: And I guess one of the things, too, is that, you know, we hear about the successes as often as possible for every administration that has ever been an administration in the United States. I guess we don't ever hear about the failures. And I guess that would be kind of embarrassing if we ever heard about most of them or all of them.
PHILIPPS: That's right. You know, when Seal Team 6 gets Osama Bin Laden, you hear about it very quickly. But when they screw up a really important mission in North Korea, I mean, we may have never heard about this.
MARTÍNEZ: Wondering if you've heard anything from the White House or former officials involved in this mission? What have you heard from them?
PHILIPPS: So far, I don't think they've said anything about this. So we'll see.
MARTÍNEZ: And anything from Congress, members of Congress? I know this story is pretty fresh, David, but I'm wondering if there's been any reaction that you have seen or heard?
PHILIPPS: I haven't. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who are on those oversight committees who are looking at this and wondering, you know, how can we do our job when you won't let us see what you're up to?
MARTÍNEZ: All right. That is New York Times national correspondent David Philipps, who cowrote that piece with freelance journalist Matthew Cole. David, thank you very much for telling us about this reporting.
PHILIPPS: Thanks for having me on.
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