JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
"Industry" is one of the wildest shows on TV right now. Wicked storylines of deception, crime, sex and drugs all set in the world of London finance, and at its heart, two deeply flawed characters who can't seem to get enough of each other - just not in that way. I am talking about Harper and Eric. Harper, played by Myha'la, starts Season 1 as a temp at the investment bank Pierpoint, making her way to the trading floor with the help of a fabricated college transcript. And Eric, played by Ken Leung, her boss and soon her mentor. Things get complicated from there - blurred professional and personal lines. The financial firm goes belly up. Eric retires. Harper calls him for advice.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "INDUSTRY")
KEN LEUNG: (As Eric Tao) But if you're hell bent on that strategy, find a structural short you actually believe is violently overvalued and should rerate. Own the story, your name on the trade, because it's your name on the door, not some other schmuck.
MYHA'LA: (As Harper Stern) And what if it was our names on the door?
SUMMERS: And with that question - what if it was our names on the door? - Harper and Eric are back in action. "Industry" is now on its fourth season on HBO, and Myha'la and Ken Leung join me now. Welcome.
LEUNG: Thank you. Thanks for having us.
MYHA'LA: Hi.
SUMMERS: So lovely to talk with you guys. So in the first few seasons, the show makes clear that Harper is working and climbing in a man's world, but she is very clearly not intimidated. And as viewers, we don't get a ton of backstory for her. Myha'la, where do you think that bravery comes from?
MYHA'LA: I mean, she's a Black woman in the world, so there's that. But I don't know. It can be bravery. I think it is a kind of courage, yes, but it's also, like, a - she's just relentless in her pursuit to succeed. And it's really about survival, which also has to do with being a Black woman in the world. I feel like we are trained, whether we want to be or not, to survive in the world. And she understands the new world she's entering, this one run by powerful men and people who don't look like her and people who have things that she never had. So she definitely understands, like, that it's going to be an uphill climb, and if she - she's also not giving that up because she wants what she wants, and she knows what she needs to do to get it.
So, yeah, I think the bravery comes from survival but also this, like, deep, deep need to succeed. It's by any means necessary, and having courage is just a part of that.
SUMMERS: Ken, to you, what does Eric first see in Harper, or as he nicknames her, Harpsichord?
LEUNG: I don't know that it was something so specific. I think he felt something that reminded him of the younger him. It's not obvious, but she shows an inner sort of you-can't-ruffle-my-feathers-ness in that interview.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "INDUSTRY")
LEUNG: (As Eric Tao) Why are you here, then?
MYHA'LA: (As Harper Stern) Well, it's not a very political answer, but I think mediocrity is too well hidden by parents who hire private tutors. I am here on my own.
LEUNG: She doesn't behave inappropriately at all. She's very respectful, but you sense something beneath the surface - or Eric's senses. And I think it - the quality of what he senses reminds him of when he was younger, when you need to be strong, but you can't show it in a certain way. You're not allowed to show certain things, and you have to kind of be resilient in an invisible way to make it in this world where other people are allowed. And so he recognizes that.
SUMMERS: If the three of us were to sit here and list everything that Eric and Harper have done and said to gain advantage or make things happen on the show, they would sound like absolutely awful people who are completely irredeemable. Given all of that, though, we still root for them. What is that about, and how is it that the two of you make us love and continue to root for these characters?
MYHA'LA: Interesting that you say that because - and I also am biased because I have to play - I am Harper in many ways, so I have to justify everything she does in a way that is human, humanizes her, humanizes the rest of the world. A lot of people say that these are irredeemable behaviors or irredeemable people. My view is, again, they're survivors and they're playing by the rules of a game that wasn't created for them. It wasn't created by them, and it wasn't created for them. Anybody else in this world who doesn't look like these two minorities, these two transplant minorities, they'll move this way, and it's expected of them. So nobody blinks. Nobody calls them irredeemable. They just say, oh, well, they're doing what they're supposed to do in finance.
So, yeah, I just - I don't know that I necessarily agree or can even answer that question because I don't think that these are bad human beings. I don't think they're making irredeemable choices. I believe that they're playing a game. And the expectations that the world puts on these two different people is not the same expectations that they put on white men, white people in general. And I think that's even more badass (laughter) than anyone else doing it.
SUMMERS: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. I'm going to tread sort of lightly with this next one because I don't want to spoil the season for people who maybe aren't caught up and haven't seen it, but there seems to be the end of a chapter for Eric in Episode 6 of this season. And we don't know what's going to happen next, but if we never see Eric again, Ken, what would you want us to know about that character and how playing him impacted you?
LEUNG: You know, it used to be, you do a show and you don't know how people are going to respond to it till weeks later, months later, like, depending on when it airs and stuff. And we're in this very unique time when you kind of know immediately if you want to know. So I feel like I'm suddenly in a room full of people, whereas before, I wasn't. So I want people to know that I feel them. I want people to know that even though, you know, I'm not on social media, I sense a difference in how the space of doing a show, of being an actor - I can feel it peopled in a way that I've never felt before. And I want them to know that I get that. I'm receiving that.
SUMMERS: After stepping in and playing Harper and Eric for four seasons, I do have to ask for either of you, do you have any hesitation about investing your own real-life paychecks now?
MYHA'LA: Lol (ph).
(LAUGHTER)
MYHA'LA: I don't invest my own real life paycheck. I leave that to a trained professional.
LEUNG: Yeah, same.
MYHA'LA: Four seasons of "Industry" will never be enough...
(LAUGHTER)
MYHA'LA: ...For me to understand what's going on in the world of finance.
LEUNG: I like to joke that I know even - I don't even know if it's a joke, but I like to say that it's - I know even less now than I did before because...
MYHA'LA: (Laughter) Yeah, seriously.
LEUNG: Yeah. Because now it's noise. Where before...
MYHA'LA: Yeah.
LEUNG: ...It was peace and quiet, now it's just, what is this concept, and what does that mean? And it's just a jumble of noise.
(LAUGHTER)
SUMMERS: We've been talking with Ken Leung and Myha'la. They star in "Industry," Sunday nights on HBO and HBO Max. Thanks to both of you.
MYHA'LA: Thank you so much.
LEUNG: Thank you so much, Juana.
(SOUNDBITE OF NATHAN MICAY'S "BLUE SPRING") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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