STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
President Trump is sending representatives to Moscow and Kyiv to work out a way to end the war in Ukraine. One of his aides is the subject of a new report from Bloomberg. Bloomberg published a transcript of a phone call in which the aide advises a Russian official about how Russia can handle the emotions of Donald Trump. NPR has not confirmed this transcript. And in a moment, we will hear Michael McFaul, a former U.S. ambassador to Russia. We begin with the negotiations.
MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
NPR White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez is here to talk about why Trump continues to push even after all these setbacks. Franco, good morning.
FRANCO ORDOÑEZ, BYLINE: Good morning, Michel.
MARTIN: So the original 28-point plan was widely criticized as a wish list by the Russians. Now the administration says it's updated. Where do things stand now?
ORDOÑEZ: Yeah. The Trump administration has been furiously negotiating with both sides, bouncing between a Russia-friendly version and a more Ukraine-friendly one. And Trump now says there are only a few remaining points of disagreement. He said last night he's dispatching his special envoy, Steve Witkoff - Witkoff is the Trump negotiator who is on that transcript - and maybe son-in-law Jared Kushner to Moscow to meet with President Putin. And then he's sending Army Secretary Dan Driscoll to meet with the Ukrainians.
MARTIN: But, you know, Franco, we've been here before. Do we have a sense of whether this is really progress?
ORDOÑEZ: Yeah. I mean, talks are happening and ideas are being exchanged. That's something. I mean, it's more than what was happening a few weeks ago. But are they closer to reaching a deal? I mean, not necessarily. I mean, I was talking with Ivo Daalder, who was the ambassador to NATO in the Obama administration. And he says, basically, last week, you had Russia agreeing to one plan, and now you have Ukraine agreeing to a different plan.
IVO DAALDER: The problem is Ukraine and Russia don't agree. So you can come up with any plan that the U.S. and Russia can agree on and any plan that the U.S. and Ukraine can agree on. That's not the same as having a plan that Ukraine and Russia can agree on. And that's their problem.
MARTIN: Last week, President Trump seemed to set this take-it-or-leave-it deadline for Thanksgiving, but he did back off that over the weekend. What does that tell you about his motivations?
ORDOÑEZ: Well, I mean, it's another example of how driven Trump is to just get to yes in any way possible. Richard Fontaine served in the George W. Bush White House and now runs the Center for a New American Security. And he told me that what matters to Ukraine and Russia doesn't so much matter to Trump.
RICHARD FONTAINE: Trump clearly wants a deal. I don't know that the content of the deal matters all that much to him as long as it stops the fighting. That, therefore, gives a lot of leeway to those negotiating what the terms of that deal are. And, of course, for Ukraine and for the Russians and for the Europeans and for many people, the terms are all-important.
ORDOÑEZ: Terms are very important, and that's why Russia wants more of the eastern Donbas region for strategic and economic benefits. And it's also why Ukraine wants clear security guarantees from Western partners like the U.S. to ensure that Russia never invades again.
MARTIN: You know, people might remember that Trump talks a lot about the conflicts that he says he has ended. He did that yesterday during the Thanksgiving turkey pardons. How much of this is about his quest for the Nobel Peace Prize?
ORDOÑEZ: Look, I mean, I think he genuinely cares about the loss of life. It's something he frequently mentions when talking about the war. But I don't think you can discount his desire for recognition. I mean, he talks about the Nobel Peace Prize a lot. His aides talk about it as well. And Daalder and Fontaine both told me that Trump is likely looking at his legacy. And as any president would, I mean, what better way to be seen as the ultimate dealmaker than solving this intractable war?
MARTIN: That is White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez. Franco, thank you.
ORDOÑEZ: Thank you, Michel. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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