SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
There are certain bars of music - and even just a blip of them will do the trick - that immediately put me and I'm pretty sure millions of other people in a very specific headspace.
(SOUNDBITE OF JOHN WILLIAMS' "STAR WARS (MAIN TITLE)")
DETROW: From that first blast of brass, you are in a galaxy far, far away, reading a scroll of text that is somehow zipping across outer space. Or...
(SOUNDBITE OF JOHN WILLIAMS' "THE RAIDERS MARCH")
DETROW: ...This march puts you in the mindset of a globetrotting whip-cracking adventure, and I will mention one more the swelling score that puts me in a place of wonder with images of people reacting to seeing dinosaurs with their own eyes for the very first time.
(SOUNDBITE OF JOHN WILLIAMS' "MAIN THEME (FROM 'JURASSIC PARK')")
DETROW: These film scores are among the most iconic in history, and they are all the work of one man - John Williams. Best known for his collaborations with Steven Spielberg and George Lucas, Williams has created a body of work that spans decades. At the movie theater this summer, you will hear echoes of his work in the new "Superman" and "Jurassic Park" movies, two franchises that are totally inseparable from Williams' themes, even if other composers are doing most of the legwork on these current sequel scores. So we thought now is as good a time as any to discuss this legendary film composer. We brought in NPR Music's Robin Hilton and ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producer Marc Rivers, who spearheads these weekly movie talks. Hey, Marc.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Scott.
DETROW: And Robin, good to have you.
ROBIN HILTON, BYLINE: Thanks for having me.
DETROW: I have built this up, and clearly my mind is made up, but...
(LAUGHTER)
DETROW: Marc, argument to be made that John Williams has composed the most recognizable themes in movie history, but is he the greatest film composer?
RIVERS: I think it's hard to gauge, like, what greatest might mean in this instance, right? I mean, if we talk about, you know, most awarded, someone like Alfred Newman, who was active in the '30s, '40s - you may know his work from "Airport" - you know, he won more Oscars than John Williams did, you know, nine to John Williams' five. Someone like Bernard Herrmann, best known for his music with Alfred Hitchcock, he's probably more of a groundbreaking composer than John Williams. But I think for generations of people, when you think of film composer, you think John Williams in the same way you think - you know, when you think about basketball, you think Michael Jordan or inventor, you might think Edison. He's become kind of synonymous.
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: And for me, also, John Williams - while other composers, you might think of a certain movie or movies, but John Williams, I think of the movies, you know, capital M movies, you know?
DETROW: Decades of movies.
RIVERS: Yeah, and just, like, the romantic ideal of what movies are supposed to be - they're supposed to take you someplace. They transport you somewhere. And I think John Williams' work kind of embodies that. And, you know, through his work, they're also - you know, in the same way that Spielberg's best stuff has kind of tapped into the inner child in all of us, you know, Williams' best music taps into that inner child as well. So when you hear his music, it's kind of like hearing a part of yourself. So I think if you take in all of that, there's a solid case to be made that he is the GOAT - maybe not definitive but solid.
DETROW: So Robin, Marc and I are just guys with opinions. You actually host a music podcast. You actually compose yourself.
RIVERS: Yeah, he's the only one here who actually know what he's talking about.
(LAUGHTER)
DETROW: Yeah, that's pretty clear (ph).
HILTON: I got you (ph).
DETROW: We're leaving it to the professionals. We have obviously laid out our point of view. What do you make of it? Is John Williams the GOAT when you're talking about movie composing?
HILTON: Honestly, I adore John Williams. Kind of like what you were saying, Marc, he gets his hooks into you when you're a kid. He scored my entire childhood, right? My life was full of all this magic and awe and wonder because of him. I listened to the "E.T." score just the other day when I was out for a walk because it still fills me with so much joy when I listen to it.
(SOUNDBITE OF JOHN WILLIAMS' "ADVENTURE ON EARTH")
HILTON: But I think there are way too many other composers in this conversation that you have to consider before you would ever call him the greatest of all time. I think you have to consider Ennio Morricone who, like Williams, you know, he had an equally prolific, very long-running career - equally iconic, instantly recognizable melodies when you think of - particularly of all the stuff that he did with some of the Westerns that he scored, all the work he did with Sergio Leone.
(SOUNDBITE OF ENNIO MORRICONE'S "THE ECSTASY OF GOLD")
HILTON: And Bernard Herrmann, the work he did with Alfred Hitchcock in particular...
RIVERS: Absolutely.
HILTON: ...He completely upended the way Hollywood thinks about scores.
(SOUNDBITE OF BERNARD HERRMANN'S "THE KNIFE")
HILTON: And, you know, also, I think, as much as I love John Williams and as brilliant as I think he is, I think there's some legitimate criticisms of his work.
DETROW: What are they?
HILTON: Well, I think it's fair to say that he has borrowed pretty heavily from other composers. This is a complaint that you can make about a lot of film composers, to be fair. But, like, have you heard Dvorak's "Symphony No. 9"? It's straight up "Jaws."
RIVERS: I have to say I have not (ph).
HILTON: It is straight up "Jaws."
(SOUNDBITE OF ANTONIN DVORAK'S "SYMPHONY NO. 9 'FROM THE NEW WORLD', IV. ALLEGRO CON FUOCO")
DETROW: Oh, wow.
HILTON: (Laughter) Yeah, right?
DETROW: Oh, wow. I had no idea.
(LAUGHTER)
HILTON: And, you know, there are parts of the "E.T." score that I think are right out of Herrmann's "Psycho" score.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
HILTON: Again, I love John Williams. But I also think...
DETROW: I don't know, do you?
(LAUGHTER)
HILTON: I really, really, really do. I also think it's fair to say that apart from his most iconic work, his music's pretty safe. You know, it's pretty by the book. It's very often, like, right on the nose, really tugging at your heartstrings. He and Steven Spielberg go together so well because Steven Spielberg's movies are very much the same way - brilliant up to a point, and then kind of in need of an editor. You know, they get a little schmaltzy, a little corny.
DETROW: There's some small - some sentiment...
RIVERS: But I think it's classical, right? You know, I think there's a timelessness to John Williams' best work in a way that you would - like, when you hear, let's say, the composer Vangelis - right? - when you hear that music in "Chariots Of Fire," like, you're immediately - this is the '80s.
(SOUNDBITE OF VANGELIS' "CHARIOTS OF FIRE")
RIVERS: And it can't be any other decade but the '80s.
DETROW: Yeah. I mean, you just want to start running.
RIVERS: Or you thinking about - you think about those jazz scores that we had, like, the mid-'60s. Like, those pieces, you can't really take out of the decades that they came - that they were released. But there's a real classical timelessness to John Williams' music. I think there's a reason why we - that they still perform them in these concert venues because it has an accessibility that kind of transcends any kind of decade.
DETROW: I don't actually know the answer, but the thing I want to ask everybody is, like, if you had to pick one score theme that you feel like gets to the essence of what he's done, what would it be? I think for me, I go back and forth between "Superman" and "Indiana Jones," but I think I land on the "Raiders" theme.
HILTON: Really? Well, I mean, I think his most accomplished score is "Close Encounters."
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
HILTON: It is so intricate. It's vast. It's incredibly complex.
DETROW: Yeah.
HILTON: And by the way, he did "Close Encounters" the same year he did "Star Wars."
RIVERS: Hall of Fame year, yeah.
HILTON: Hall of Fame year.
DETROW: Wow.
HILTON: I mean, he's had other years like that. He did "Jurassic Park" and "Schindler's List" in the same year as well.
(SOUNDBITE OF JOHN WILLIAMS' "MAIN THEME (FROM 'SCHINDLER'S LIST')")
RIVERS: When I think about what makes John Williams special, I think about his use of light motifs. This is, you know, essentially just a musical theme that corresponds to a person or situation. And, you know, Scott, when you hear this music, what do you envision?
(SOUNDBITE OF JOHN WILLIAMS' "YODA'S THEME")
DETROW: This is the Yoda theme, yeah.
RIVERS: This is Yoda. It's Yoda and Dagobah. And, you know, if you hear "The Imperial March," you see the Stormtroopers marching, you see Darth Vader. So I think it's that ability to just conjure the movies without you haven't even watched them. Not only the movie, overall, but certain scenes, characters - that's so wonderful about him.
DETROW: The movies are a lot different now. The monoculture is, like, basically nonexistent, which we talk a lot about.
HILTON: Yeah.
DETROW: Robin, I'm wondering, do you think there are any composers out there right now who could become as synonymous with films as John Williams has been?
HILTON: Yeah, I mean, I think there already are. I mean, do you (laughter)...
RIVERS: Hot take, very hot take - scalding hot take right here.
HILTON: I mean, Danny Elfman, Thomas Newman, Hans Zimmer. You know, I was...
RIVERS: But those guys have been around for a while, you know?
HILTON: I know. So...
DETROW: Yeah.
HILTON: ...I was thinking, like, all right, who are some people that we might be talking about decades from now in this space? And I think we'll see a case made for Hildur Guonadottir. I think we could make a case for Mica Levi. They haven't done a lot yet, but the stuff that they have done is incredible.
RIVERS: I'm going to say no, absolutely not.
HILTON: Also, equally hot take (laughter).
RIVERS: I mean, the composers you mentioned - like, Mica Levi makes music that's probably more akin to soundscapes. So it's like, if you look at the...
HILTON: Some of it, yeah (ph).
RIVERS: ...Listen to the music for "Zone Of Interest," that's like the banshees of hell reaching out to meet you. I don't know if we'll be like, listening to that on, like, Saturday mornings.
(SOUNDBITE OF MICA LEVI'S "THE ZONE OF INTEREST")
RIVERS: Same with Guonadottir - I mean, I don't know if 50 years from now, we'll be listening to the music from "Joker," you know?
HILTON: Oh, come on. Oh, come on.
RIVERS: And I think, like you said, Scott, like, the culture is too different. I think the movies don't matter as much the way they used to when Williams was at his height, and our relationship to the movies is so different now and so kind of fractured that I just don't think we'll have another composer that will personify the movies the way John Williams did.
HILTON: I want to say, by the way, not calling him the greatest of all time does not diminish his - what he's accomplished. The Rushmore, I mean, is John Williams on the Mount Rushmore?
DETROW: Yes.
RIVERS: Yeah, for sure.
HILTON: Hundred thousand percent he's on the Rushmore.
RIVERS: For sure, yeah.
DETROW: Robin Hilton, Marc Rivers, you're both on my Mount Rushmore of movie guests to talk about these weekly conversations. Thanks to both of you.
RIVERS: Much appreciated, Scott.
HILTON: You're welcome. And if I still have a career after this, I hope I'm on again.
DETROW: (Laughter) Yeah, cancelled.
(SOUNDBITE OF JOHN WILLIAMS' "THE RAIDERS MARCH") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
